[gmx-users] crystals of KCl during simulation

David van der Spoel spoel at xray.bmc.uu.se
Mon Jun 1 20:50:56 CEST 2009


Rebeca García Fandiño wrote:
> 
>  Thank you very much, André. Could you please indicate me how could 
> I use these parameters in Gromacs? I have not seen them included in 
> ions.itp and I could not find anything in the manual.
> Best wishes,
> Rebeca.


I would recommend reading the following paper, even though it only is 
about NaCl it compares the properties of four different parameter sets, 
and IIRC Åqvist's parameters were not so great.

@Article{ Hess2006c,
   author =       "B. Hess and C. Holm and N. {van der Vegt}",
   title =        "Osmotic coefficients of atomistic NaCl (aq) force
                   fields",
   journal =      "J. Chem. Phys.",
   year =         2006,
   volume =       124,
   pages =        164509,
   abstract =     "Solvated ions are becoming increasingly important
                   for (bio)molecular simulations. But there are not
                   much suitable data to validate the
                   intermediate-range solution structure that ion-water
                   force fields produce. We compare six selected
                   combinations of four biomolecular Na-Cl force fields
                   and four popular water models by means of effective
                   ion-ion potentials. First we derive an effective
                   potential at high dilution from simulations of two
                   ions in explicit water. At higher ionic
                   concentration multibody effects will become
                   important. We propose to capture those by employing
                   a concentration dependent dielectric
                   permittivity. With the so obtained effective
                   potentials we then perform implicit solvent
                   simulations. We demonstrate that our effective
                   potentials accurately reproduce ion-ion coordination
                   numbers and the local structure. They allow us
                   furthermore to calculate osmotic coefficients that
                   can be directly compared with experimental data. We
                   show that the osmotic coefficient is a sensitive and
                   accurate measure for the effective ion-ion
                   interactions and the intermediate-range structure of
                   the solution. It is therefore a suitable and useful
                   quantity for validating and parametrizing atomistic
                   ion-water force fields. (c) 2006 American Institute
                   of Physics. 0021-9606"
}



>  
>  
>  > Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 14:52:35 -0300
>  > Subject: RE: [gmx-users] crystals of KCl during simulation
>  > From: moura at ufscar.br
>  > To: gmx-users at gromacs.org
>  >
>  > Hi Rebeca,
>  >
>  > I found out a few years ago that OPLS parameters for Na+ were inadequate
>  > for my simulations on surfactants aggregation due to the formation of
>  > stable (and unrealistic) ionic bridges. I got better structures using
>  > Aqvist's parameters (available in GROMACS), maybe you could try these
>  > parameters for K+ as well.
>  >
>  > please let me know if that works.
>  >
>  > best regards,
>  >
>  > André
>  >
>  >
>  > >
>  > > Yes, I use PME.
>  > >
>  > >> Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 19:34:27 +0200
>  > >> From: spoel at xray.bmc.uu.se
>  > >> To: gmx-users at gromacs.org
>  > >> Subject: Re: [gmx-users] crystals of KCl during simulation
>  > >>
>  > >> Rebeca García Fandiño wrote:
>  > >> > Thank you very much for your answer. I have read some recent
>  > >> literature,
>  > >> > and you are right, it is a problem about the parameters for ions in
>  > >> Amber.
>  > >> >
>  > >> > I have found this paper:
>  > >> > Parameters of Monovalent Ions in the Amber-99 Forcefield: 
> Assesment of
>  > >> > Inaccuracies and Proposed Improvements
>  > >> > http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jp0765392
>  > >> >
>  > >> > There, they simulate nucleic acids using a combination of Amber and
>  > >> > OPLS sigma and epsilon for the ions. I have tried that in the 
> case of
>  > >> my
>  > >> > protein, just changing the ion sigma and epsilon in the topology by
>  > >> > those corresponding to OPLS, but I still observe aggregation for the
>  > >> ions.
>  > >> >
>  > >> > Would this combination of Amber and OPLS have any kind of potential
>  > >> > problem during the simulation? Has anybody any idea to avoid 
> this type
>  > >> > of artefact?
>  > >>
>  > >> Just checking, do you use PME? (You should...)
>  > >> >
>  > >> > Thank you very much in advance,
>  > >> >
>  > >> > Rebeca.
>  > >> >
>  > >> > > To: gmx-users at gromacs.org
>  > >> > > Subject: Re: [gmx-users] crystals of KCl during simulation
>  > >> > > Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 14:34:55 +0200
>  > >> > > From: baaden at smplinux.de
>  > >> > >
>  > >> > >
>  > >> > > Hi,
>  > >> > >
>  > >> > > regafan at hotmail.com said:
>  > >> > > >> [..] but after equilibration I have observed that KCl is
>  > >> > aggregating, like
>  > >> > > >> if it was making crystals. When I used NaCl instead KCl, 
> this not
>  > >> > > >> happened.
>  > >> > >
>  > >> > > >> Does anybody has any idea about the reason of the behaviour of
>  > >> KCl in
>  > >> > > >> the simulation?
>  > >> > >
>  > >> > > This even does happen with Amber :) So my guess is you correctly
>  > >> > transferred
>  > >> > > the parameters, but stumbled upon an artefact. If you check the
>  > >> recent
>  > >> > > literature you may notice that many publications with Amber 
> using K+
>  > >> > > only employ minimal (neutralising) salt conditions as a 
> workaround.
>  > >> At
>  > >> > > least this is what we did recently [1].
>  > >> > >
>  > >> > > Marc Baaden
>  > >> > >
>  > >> > > [1] Interactions between neuronal fusion proteins explored by
>  > >> molecular
>  > >> > > dynamics, Biophys.J.94, 2008, 3436-3446.
>  > >> > > http://dx.doi.org/10.1529/biophysj.107.123117
>  > >> > >
>  > >> > > --
>  > >> > > Dr. Marc Baaden - Institut de Biologie Physico-Chimique, Paris
>  > >> > > mailto:baaden at smplinux.de - http://www.baaden.ibpc.fr
>  > >> > > FAX: +33 15841 5026 - Tel: +33 15841 5176 ou +33 609 843217
>  > >> > >
>  > >> > >
>  > >> > > _______________________________________________
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>  > >> >
>  > >> > 
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>  > >> >
>  > >> > _______________________________________________
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>  > >>
>  > >> --
>  > >> David.
>  > >> 
> ________________________________________________________________________
>  > >> David van der Spoel, PhD, Professor of Biology
>  > >> Dept. of Cell and Molecular Biology, Uppsala University.
>  > >> Husargatan 3, Box 596, 75124 Uppsala, Sweden
>  > >> phone: 46 18 471 4205 fax: 46 18 511 755
>  > >> spoel at xray.bmc.uu.se spoel at gromacs.org http://folding.bmc.uu.se
>  > >> 
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-- 
David.
________________________________________________________________________
David van der Spoel, PhD, Professor of Biology
Dept. of Cell and Molecular Biology, Uppsala University.
Husargatan 3, Box 596,  	75124 Uppsala, Sweden
phone:	46 18 471 4205		fax: 46 18 511 755
spoel at xray.bmc.uu.se	spoel at gromacs.org   http://folding.bmc.uu.se
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