[gmx-users] crystals of KCl during simulation

moura at ufscar.br moura at ufscar.br
Tue Jun 2 14:51:12 CEST 2009


Hi Rebeca,

the paper David suggests is certainly more complete, I just compared OPLS
and Aqvist's parameters for sodium for the specific case of anionic
micelles. anyway, if want to try the Aqvist's parameters take a look
inside ffoplsaa.atp file (opls_408 for K+).

best regards,

André

> Rebeca García Fandiño wrote:
>>
>>  Thank you very much, André. Could you please indicate me how could
>> I use these parameters in Gromacs? I have not seen them included in
>> ions.itp and I could not find anything in the manual.
>> Best wishes,
>> Rebeca.
>
>
> I would recommend reading the following paper, even though it only is
> about NaCl it compares the properties of four different parameter sets,
> and IIRC Åqvist's parameters were not so great.
>
> @Article{ Hess2006c,
>    author =       "B. Hess and C. Holm and N. {van der Vegt}",
>    title =        "Osmotic coefficients of atomistic NaCl (aq) force
>                    fields",
>    journal =      "J. Chem. Phys.",
>    year =         2006,
>    volume =       124,
>    pages =        164509,
>    abstract =     "Solvated ions are becoming increasingly important
>                    for (bio)molecular simulations. But there are not
>                    much suitable data to validate the
>                    intermediate-range solution structure that ion-water
>                    force fields produce. We compare six selected
>                    combinations of four biomolecular Na-Cl force fields
>                    and four popular water models by means of effective
>                    ion-ion potentials. First we derive an effective
>                    potential at high dilution from simulations of two
>                    ions in explicit water. At higher ionic
>                    concentration multibody effects will become
>                    important. We propose to capture those by employing
>                    a concentration dependent dielectric
>                    permittivity. With the so obtained effective
>                    potentials we then perform implicit solvent
>                    simulations. We demonstrate that our effective
>                    potentials accurately reproduce ion-ion coordination
>                    numbers and the local structure. They allow us
>                    furthermore to calculate osmotic coefficients that
>                    can be directly compared with experimental data. We
>                    show that the osmotic coefficient is a sensitive and
>                    accurate measure for the effective ion-ion
>                    interactions and the intermediate-range structure of
>                    the solution. It is therefore a suitable and useful
>                    quantity for validating and parametrizing atomistic
>                    ion-water force fields. (c) 2006 American Institute
>                    of Physics. 0021-9606"
> }
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>  > Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 14:52:35 -0300
>>  > Subject: RE: [gmx-users] crystals of KCl during simulation
>>  > From: moura at ufscar.br
>>  > To: gmx-users at gromacs.org
>>  >
>>  > Hi Rebeca,
>>  >
>>  > I found out a few years ago that OPLS parameters for Na+ were
>> inadequate
>>  > for my simulations on surfactants aggregation due to the formation of
>>  > stable (and unrealistic) ionic bridges. I got better structures using
>>  > Aqvist's parameters (available in GROMACS), maybe you could try these
>>  > parameters for K+ as well.
>>  >
>>  > please let me know if that works.
>>  >
>>  > best regards,
>>  >
>>  > André
>>  >
>>  >
>>  > >
>>  > > Yes, I use PME.
>>  > >
>>  > >> Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 19:34:27 +0200
>>  > >> From: spoel at xray.bmc.uu.se
>>  > >> To: gmx-users at gromacs.org
>>  > >> Subject: Re: [gmx-users] crystals of KCl during simulation
>>  > >>
>>  > >> Rebeca García Fandiño wrote:
>>  > >> > Thank you very much for your answer. I have read some recent
>>  > >> literature,
>>  > >> > and you are right, it is a problem about the parameters for ions
>> in
>>  > >> Amber.
>>  > >> >
>>  > >> > I have found this paper:
>>  > >> > Parameters of Monovalent Ions in the Amber-99 Forcefield:
>> Assesment of
>>  > >> > Inaccuracies and Proposed Improvements
>>  > >> > http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jp0765392
>>  > >> >
>>  > >> > There, they simulate nucleic acids using a combination of Amber
>> and
>>  > >> > OPLS sigma and epsilon for the ions. I have tried that in the
>> case of
>>  > >> my
>>  > >> > protein, just changing the ion sigma and epsilon in the topology
>> by
>>  > >> > those corresponding to OPLS, but I still observe aggregation for
>> the
>>  > >> ions.
>>  > >> >
>>  > >> > Would this combination of Amber and OPLS have any kind of
>> potential
>>  > >> > problem during the simulation? Has anybody any idea to avoid
>> this type
>>  > >> > of artefact?
>>  > >>
>>  > >> Just checking, do you use PME? (You should...)
>>  > >> >
>>  > >> > Thank you very much in advance,
>>  > >> >
>>  > >> > Rebeca.
>>  > >> >
>>  > >> > > To: gmx-users at gromacs.org
>>  > >> > > Subject: Re: [gmx-users] crystals of KCl during simulation
>>  > >> > > Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 14:34:55 +0200
>>  > >> > > From: baaden at smplinux.de
>>  > >> > >
>>  > >> > >
>>  > >> > > Hi,
>>  > >> > >
>>  > >> > > regafan at hotmail.com said:
>>  > >> > > >> [..] but after equilibration I have observed that KCl is
>>  > >> > aggregating, like
>>  > >> > > >> if it was making crystals. When I used NaCl instead KCl,
>> this not
>>  > >> > > >> happened.
>>  > >> > >
>>  > >> > > >> Does anybody has any idea about the reason of the behaviour
>> of
>>  > >> KCl in
>>  > >> > > >> the simulation?
>>  > >> > >
>>  > >> > > This even does happen with Amber :) So my guess is you
>> correctly
>>  > >> > transferred
>>  > >> > > the parameters, but stumbled upon an artefact. If you check
>> the
>>  > >> recent
>>  > >> > > literature you may notice that many publications with Amber
>> using K+
>>  > >> > > only employ minimal (neutralising) salt conditions as a
>> workaround.
>>  > >> At
>>  > >> > > least this is what we did recently [1].
>>  > >> > >
>>  > >> > > Marc Baaden
>>  > >> > >
>>  > >> > > [1] Interactions between neuronal fusion proteins explored by
>>  > >> molecular
>>  > >> > > dynamics, Biophys.J.94, 2008, 3436-3446.
>>  > >> > > http://dx.doi.org/10.1529/biophysj.107.123117
>>  > >> > >
>>  > >> > > --
>>  > >> > > Dr. Marc Baaden - Institut de Biologie Physico-Chimique, Paris
>>  > >> > > mailto:baaden at smplinux.de - http://www.baaden.ibpc.fr
>>  > >> > > FAX: +33 15841 5026 - Tel: +33 15841 5176 ou +33 609 843217
>>  > >> > >
>>  > >> > >
>>  > >> > > _______________________________________________
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>>  > >>
>>  > >> --
>>  > >> David.
>>  > >>
>> ________________________________________________________________________
>>  > >> David van der Spoel, PhD, Professor of Biology
>>  > >> Dept. of Cell and Molecular Biology, Uppsala University.
>>  > >> Husargatan 3, Box 596, 75124 Uppsala, Sweden
>>  > >> phone: 46 18 471 4205 fax: 46 18 511 755
>>  > >> spoel at xray.bmc.uu.se spoel at gromacs.org http://folding.bmc.uu.se
>>  > >>
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>
>
> --
> David.
> ________________________________________________________________________
> David van der Spoel, PhD, Professor of Biology
> Dept. of Cell and Molecular Biology, Uppsala University.
> Husargatan 3, Box 596,  	75124 Uppsala, Sweden
> phone:	46 18 471 4205		fax: 46 18 511 755
> spoel at xray.bmc.uu.se	spoel at gromacs.org   http://folding.bmc.uu.se
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